- Cin - Cinelerra-GG Mailing Lists

ms2130 hdmi-usb dongles
by Andrew Randrianasulu 13 Feb '23

13 Feb '23

https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/11/07/ms2130-based-4k-hdmi-to-usb-3-0-vid… "I learned about the video capture dongle via Mateusz Starzak <https://twitter.com/MateuszStarzak/status/1589595781971181568> who purchased a sample on Aliexpress <https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dd6uEUB> and confirmed support for uncompressed YUV @ 1080p60. He also mentioned the latency to be around 6 to 11 frames depending on the resolution with 720p input to 720p output only looking slightly faster than 1080p input to 1080p output." well, I hope Terje's camera can be switched into hdmi progressive output mode ..... contain few links. Of course main problem is verification ..... if they just paint them (usb connectors) blue for no reason ...:/

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adv7181d (video decoder chip)
by Andrew Randrianasulu 12 Feb '23

12 Feb '23

May be I read it wrong but table 10 suggest it can even output 20 bit (!!!) yuv for no reason ?? (input ADC only 10 bit) Note, very early version without any letter at the end seems to say "9 bit ADC". Also, some versions may support "16 bit port" or "8 bit port" depending on exact packaging! https://web.archive.org/web/20221006213255/https://www.analog.com/media/en/… Four 10-bit ADCs sampling up to 75 MHz 10 analog input channels SCART fast blank support Internal antialiasing filters GENERAL DESCRIPTION The ADV7181D is a high quality, single-chip, multiformat video decoder and graphics digitizer. This multiformat decoder supports the conversion of PAL, NTSC, and SECAM standards in the form of composite or S-Video into a digital ITU-R BT.656 format. At least 10 bit yuv 4:2:2 seems to be real at chip level "10-Bit SDR ITU-R BT.656" I have no idea if there even way to store 20bit per component yuv .... But board for it will be definitely not beginner's project: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/311491/adv7180-breakout-boa… slightly different board but high-speed challenges outlined ... Apparently some of those chips (same family) were used in some Blackmagick devices but not necessary in best for vhs config? https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4356-dazzle-dvc107-video.html ==== And I just received a reply from the Australian BlackMagic Design distributor, confirming that their Intensity Pro card uses the ADV7180. Though they tell me it doesn't handle timebase errors well, and they recommend an external TBC! That's disappointing! Sounds like it's been configured for very stable professional equipment. ------------------------------ * Last edited by AusDaz; 07-15-2012 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Updated info * *====* *note, 10 years later we have some software to try ... I successed in compiling vhs-decode branch of ld-decode, at least mains script do not err out on my Slackware, so ..... :-)*

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Analog S-Video or HDV capture via HDMI-USB to FFV1.mkv in realtime
by Terje J. Hanssen 12 Feb '23

12 Feb '23

I have no plan to compete with our National Library located locally here :) https://www-nrk-no.translate.goog/nordland/her-skal-den-norske-kulturarven-… but I prepare myself to test and use one method left with regards to "Personal Video Archiving". Therefore I have ordered two selected, inexpensive devices (the urls here are just for English language): 1) Capture Card USB HDMI 4K to 1080P USB-C adapter (Speedy USB 3.2/3.1/3.0, 60 Hz and 1080p FHD.) https://www.turascandinavia.com/en/products/computer/microphone-webcam/webc… * Fluid video recordings without delays or distortions during live streaming * Linux not mentioned, but assumed this is a standard supported UVC. OBS and VLC is mentioned. 2) Scart AV SV to HDMI Converter Switcher S Video Composite RCA DVD HD TV adapter (3-4 weeks delivery time https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/295472602625 * The 3-in-1 S-/video/RCA/SCART to HDMI converter is a universal converter for analog video input to HDMI output. * Analog to digital converter (ADC), 10 bits maximum 1,62 MSPS sampling, Q I have not yet found a definitiv ffmpeg FFV1 v 3 syntax guide for SD and HDV capturing and hope for suggestions and comments here!? 3.1 FFmpeg recipe (PAL) ffmpeg -i VIDEO_IN \ -c:v ffv1 -level 3 -coder 1 -context 0 -slices 24 -slicecrc 1 \ -color_primaries bt470bg \ -color_trc bt709 \ -colorspace bt470bg \ -color_range mpeg \ -map 0 \ -top 1 \ -c:a copy \ -g 1 -pix_fmt + \ VIDEO_OUT.mkv 3.2 Reference Example https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Encode/FFV1 Copy audio "as-is" and use FFV1.3 as video codec. Parameters are 8 threads, coder=1, context=1, GOP-size=1, 24 slices and slice-CRC on: ffmpeg -i <input_video> \ -acodec copy \ -vcodec ffv1 -level 3 \ -threads 8 \ -coder 1 \ -context 1 \ -g 1 \ -slices 24 \ -slicecrc 1 \ <output_video> 3.3 Various Encoding examples for Video capture from USB camera /dev/video0: ffmpeg -f v4l2 -framerate 25 -video_size 720x576 -i /dev/video0 output_data.mkv ffmpeg -f v4l2 -framerate 25 -video_size 720x576 -i /dev/video0 -codec:v ffv1 -codec:a pcm_s16le \ -f matroska output_video.mkv Check that video is captured properly using ffplay: ffmpeg -ar 44100 -thread_queue_size 1024 -f alsa -i $AUDIO \ -r 25 -thread_queue_size 1024 -i $VIDEO \ -codec copy -f matroska - | ffplay - Check the overall flow using ffplay before capturing: ffmpeg -ar 44100 -thread_queue_size 1024 -f alsa -i $AUDIO \ -itsoffset -0.5 -r 25 -thread_queue_size 1024 -i $VIDEO \ -filter_complex 'channelmap=FL-0' -filter_complex 'crop=w=700:h=556:x=8:y=0' \ -map 1:v -map 0:a -codec:v ffv1 -codec:a pcm_s16le \ -f matroska - | ffplay - 4, Regarding FFV1 lossless compression in realtime Comparison tests (2013/2015) have shown that FFV1 produced the smallest files at the fastest speed. It can be used to capture SD material in realtime, and HD possibly, too. This according to a 2012/2015 article, where I have extracted the results for FFV1 v.3 in the tables below: http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/comparison_video_codecs_containers.html#… NOTE: This is a consumer grade, off-the-shelf PC setup. Hardware: CPU: Intel(R) QuadCore(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz RAM: 8 GB Disk: Intel SSDSA2CW080G3 (SSD) Software: Operating System: GNU/Linux (Xubuntu 12.04.1, 64bit) Transcoding tool: FFmpeg (version git N-59183-g3e62654, Dec 17 2013) Video source file: VQEG reference video "football" <http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/football_422_ntsc.y4m> (NTSC-SD, 720x486px, 30fps, yuv422p, 8bpc) Codec Encoding Decoding Filesize % of uncompressed Implementation Details FFV1 <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/comparison_video_codecs_containers.html#…> (version 3) 216 fps 277 fps 111 MiB 46.1% libavcodec (FFmpeg) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libavcodec> log <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/test_results/football-720x486i30/ffv1.3-…>, framemd5 <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/test_results/football-720x486i30/ffv1.3-…> Video source file: SVT reference video "park joy" <http://media.xiph.org/video/derf/y4m/park_joy_1080p50.y4m> (full-HD/1080p, 1920x1080px, 50fps, yuv420p, 8bpc) Codec Encoding Decoding Filesize % of uncompressed Implementation Details FFV1 <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/comparison_video_codecs_containers.html#…> (version 3) 31 fps 63 fps 879 MiB 57.2% libavcodec (FFmpeg) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libavcodec> log <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/test_results/park_joy-1920x1080p50/ffv1.…>, framemd5 <http://www.av-rd.com/knowhow/video/test_results/park_joy-1920x1080p50/ffv1.…> PAL-SD 720x576 stored as YUV422, 10 bpc (bits per component), instead of the tested 8 bpc above, seems to me would have enlarged the the filesizes with about 25%, or to about 40 GB/hr with FFV1 lossless compressed. Although the FFV1 compression results above obviously used yuv422p, 8bps source SD and FHD files as input, it seems for me that the encoding speeds at 216 fps and 31 fps for SD and FHD respectively, assumingly should manage realtime FFV1 encoding and streaming of PAL SD and HDV at 25 fps as well, especially with a faster i7-6700 x 8 cpu. Comments here? 5. Related 2021-[Cin] threads as background references [Cin] hdmi capture card (with v4l2) https://www.mail-archive.com/cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org/msg02865.html [Cin] offtopic: Digitize and record Video with A/D USB adapters https://www.mail-archive.com/cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org/msg03269.html [Cin] offtopic: HDMI capture https://www.mail-archive.com/cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org/msg02084.html [Cin] Is SD and HD 422 Video Capture obtainable with V4L(2)? https://www.mail-archive.com/cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org/msg03719.html [Cin] Uncompressed video to lossless compression FFV1/MKV https://www.mail-archive.com/cin@lists.cinelerra-gg.org/msg03791.html

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Usb 3.0 capture card (costly?)
by Andrew Randrianasulu 12 Feb '23

12 Feb '23

On vhs-decode Discord server I was pointed at this device: https://www.magewell.com/tech-specs/usb-capture-aio seems to list linux v4l2/alsa (not sure how 10bit stuff represented)

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Fwd: [simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator] [not really issue] ADV7181D (Issue #143)
by Andrew Randrianasulu 11 Feb '23

11 Feb '23

---------- Forwarded message --------- От: Harry Munday <notifications(a)github.com> Date: сб, 11 февр. 2023 г., 23:47 Subject: Re: [simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator] [not really issue] ADV7181D (Issue #143) To: simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator <DomesdayDuplicator(a)noreply.github.com> Cc: Andrew Randrianasulu <randrianasulu(a)gmail.com>, Mention < mention(a)noreply.github.com> @Randrianasulu <https://github.com/Randrianasulu> I should probably guide you to the community discord <https://discord.gg/tRFYK5NNnE> at this point as that's where all the projects devs and testers for capture/decoding and a lot of people from various A/V fields are in there. But I will also note here the ADV8472 <https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/adv7842…> is pretty much the end of the analogue all-in-one processing IC's if you give it enough ram for its TBC/Framestore its used in almost everything off the shelf from Blackmagic's poorly regarded SDI units <https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/miniconverters> to Magewells top end PCIe desktop AIO <https://www.magewell.com/products/pro-capture-aio> and USB 3.0 AIO <https://www.magewell.com/products/usb-capture-aio> based units use the same chip and Xilinx Spartan 7 FPGAs. Ware as Quadregia uses ADC's then FFPGAs for real-time but this is only for the Betacam formats as far as I know they just use the ADV stuff for VHS etc. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator/issues/143#issuecomment-142…>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJSS7TJMNMJ4JKELTTPMGGLWW…> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: <simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator/issues/143/1426873633(a)github.com>

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Domesday Duplicator
by Andrew Randrianasulu 11 Feb '23

11 Feb '23

I think this detailed description reflect nicely how high-speed non-uvc data capture work https://github.com/simoninns/DomesdayDuplicator/wiki/Hardware-Guide for better or worse you can't just connect usual analog output to it. Somewhat related: https://www.windytan.com/2019/08/capturing-pal-video-with-sdr-and-few.html?… (no code). older fx2 experiments, there by now seems to be whole library of programs for those older devices in digital instrumentation sector http://www.triplespark.net/elec/periph/USB-FX2/ Some documentation on earlier sgi board called Sirius, you can see board was 10-bit internally but small font around analog inputs said they are 8bit really! http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/video/documents/007-2238-003-siriusvideo.p…

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10-bit 422 Video capture not part of the UVC spec?
by Terje J. Hanssen 10 Feb '23

10 Feb '23

We have some threads this month discussing the performance of UVC HDMI-USB3 Vide Capture stics/dongles or devices. If technical specs are available, sadly often deficient, they may manage 422 chroma subsampling, but limited to 8-bit "Deep color" (4KVC00) or "YUY2" (ms2130) 1. To repeate the illustrative article 8-Bit vs 10-Bit Video Color Explained (millions/banding vs billion shades): https://fujifilm-x.com/en-us/series/the-filmmakers-handbook/8-bit-or-10-bit… 2. In a couple of learn.microsoft articles, 10- and 16-bit YUV Video Formats are recommended for capturing, processing, and displaying video, while 8-bit YUV color formats that are recommended for video rendering. To extract and learn the most relevant YUV formats in this context from the table https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/medfound/10-bit-and-16-bit-… YUY2 4:2:2 Packed 8 bits pr channel Y210 4:2:2 Packed 10 NV12 4:2:0 Planar 8 P010 4:2:0 Planar 10 3. So I found an interesting discussion on the Digital Photography Review forum: Cheapest (and decent) way to record 10 bits HDMI on Windows? https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4562209 Extract here an interesting section from the first reply of Mar 19, 2021: It almost looks like 10-bit may not be part of the UVC specs unless the device does hardware H.264 or HEVC decoding, there are no 10-bit color formats that appear in https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux.git/tree/drive… such as p010, and I would expect that if the UVC spec supported p010 video it would have appeared in the Linux kernel by now. If someone can confirm this is the case also today, we don't need to search for cheap or inexpensive HDMI-USB3 Video capture stick/dongles with 10-bit 422 output support. Down In the same thread also some high-priced UVC compliant devices are mentioned, but they tend to support 10-bit on HDMI input and so downscale it to 8-bit on USB3 output.

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Re: [Cin] 10-bit 422 Video capture not part of the UVC spec?
by Andrew Randrianasulu 10 Feb '23

10 Feb '23

пт, 10 февр. 2023 г., 13:12 Laurent Pinchart < laurent.pinchart(a)ideasonboard.com>: > Hello Andrew, > > (CC'ing the linux-media mailing list, as the discussion you've forwarded > already occured on a public list I assume that's not an issue) > sure. (adding our list + Terje who actually look for card or other way to input analog video with max. quality) > пт, 10 февр. 2023 г., 06:03, Andrew Randrianasulu: > > пт, 10 февр. 2023 г., 04:37 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < > cin(a)lists.cinelerra-gg.org>: > > > > > We have some threads this month discussing the performance of UVC > > > HDMI-USB3 Vide Capture stics/dongles or devices. > > > If technical specs are available, sadly often deficient, they may > manage > > > 422 chroma subsampling, but limited to 8-bit "Deep color" (4KVC00) or > > > "YUY2" (ms2130) > > > > > > 1. To repeate the illustrative article 8-Bit vs 10-Bit Video Color > > > Explained (millions/banding vs billion shades): > > > > > > > https://fujifilm-x.com/en-us/series/the-filmmakers-handbook/8-bit-or-10-bit… > > > > > > > > > 2. In a couple of learn.microsoft articles, 10- and 16-bit YUV Video > > > Formats are recommended for capturing, processing, and displaying > video, > > > while 8-bit YUV color formats that are recommended for video > rendering. To > > > extract and learn the most relevant YUV formats in this context from > the > > > table > > > > > > > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/medfound/10-bit-and-16-bit-… > > > > > > YUY2 4:2:2 Packed 8 bits pr channel > > > Y210 4:2:2 Packed 10 > > > NV12 4:2:0 Planar 8 > > > P010 4:2:0 Planar 10 > > > > > > 3. So I found an interesting discussion on the Digital Photography > Review > > > forum: > > > Cheapest (and decent) way to record 10 bits HDMI on Windows? > > > https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4562209 > > > > > > Extract here an interesting section from the first reply of Mar 19, > 2021: > > > > > > It almost looks like 10-bit may not be part of the UVC specs unless the > > > device does hardware H.264 or HEVC decoding, there are no 10-bit color > > > formats that appear in > > > > https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux.git/tree/drive… > > > such as p010, and I would expect that if the UVC spec supported p010 > video > > > it would have appeared in the Linux kernel by now. > > > > Isn't such question more for Maintainer? > > > > "USB VIDEO CLASS > > > > M: Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart(a)ideasonboard.com> > > L: linux-media(a)vger.kernel.org > > S: Maintained > > W: http://www.ideasonboard.org/uvc/ > > T: git git://linuxtv.org/media_tree.git > > F: drivers/media/usb/uvc/ > > F: include/uapi/linux/uvcvideo.h > > > > " > > > > from > > > https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux.git/tree/MAINT… > > > > I looked at (hopefully) uvc spec, but mostly for interlace info > > > > > https://www.spinelelectronics.com/pdf/UVC%25201.5%2520Class%2520specificati… > > > > I'll look for guid info some more.. > > The UVC specification standardizes very few pixel formats, but allows > for devices to expose additional frame-based formats. In practice > devices use the same GUIDs as Windows in that case, and the uvcvideo > driver supports many of those already. See include/media/v4l2-uvc.h in > the latest mainline kernel for a list. This could easily be extended > with 10-bit YUV formats. > I think I found other reference to similar problem https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2023-February/006312.html thing is, I personally do not have any fancy card, so I personally can't test this specific aspect. But thanks for answer, if we ever put our collective hands on some strange usb device we surely will try to make it work (in 10 bit, if hw support this) as outlined in 2019 thread. I think cheap sticks based on ms2109/2130 can't do 10-bit at usb end ... > > > If someone can confirm this is the case also today, we don't need to > search > > > for cheap or inexpensive HDMI-USB3 Video capture stick/dongles with > 10-bit > > > 422 output support. > > > Down In the same thread also some high-priced UVC compliant devices are > > > mentioned, but they tend to support 10-bit on HDMI input and so > downscale > > > it to 8-bit on USB3 output. > > > > Apparently hacked Cx driver can output 16 bits as ADC, but then we have > > question of feeding it with good enough signal (vhs-decode just vampires > > into VCR guts.) > > > > Is any real external vhs (ish) sources worth 10 bits path? > > > > https://github.com/happycube/cxadc-linux3 > > > > === > > > > cxadc is an alternative Linux driver for the Conexant CX2388x series of > > video decoder/encoder chips used on many PCI TV tuner and capture cards. > > > > *Note!* cx23885 and cx23888 are incompatible chips. > > > > The new driver configures the CX2388x to capture in its raw output mode > in > > 8-bit or 16-bit unsigned samples from the video input ports, allowing > these > > cards to be used as a low-cost 28-54Mhz 10bit ADC for SDR and similar > > applications. > > > > ==== > > > > vhs-decode wiki has some ffmpeg command encoding raw captures into > prores > > 10bit file > > > > https://github.com/oyvindln/vhs-decode > > > > === > > > > VHS-Decode produces two timebase corrected 16-bit GREY16 headerless files > > separated into chroma/luma composite video signals in the .tbc format > > alongside .json and .log files, usable with the LD-Decode family of tools > > ld-analyse, ld-process-vbi, ld-process-vits and ld-dropout-correct. > > > > The gen chroma scrips will use decoded .tbc files and generate standard > > video files by default a lossless, interlaced top field first and > > high-bitrate (roughly 70-100 Mb/s) FFV1 codec video which, which although > > ideal for archival and further processing. > > > > > > For editing due to lack of support of FFV1 and sharing online without > > de-interlacing is not supported properly, as such the two commands are > > provided below to make suitable files for this use. > > > > Both commands will automatically use the last file generated as the > input. > > > > For editors this transcodes an FFV1/V210 output to a "*near complient*" > > interlaced ProRes HQ file: > > > > ffmpeg -hide_banner -i "$1.mkv" -vf setfield=tff -flags +ilme+ildct > > -c:v prores -profile:v 3 -vendor apl0 -bits_per_mb 8000 -quant_mat hq > > -mbs_per_slice 8 -pixel_format yuv422p10lep -color_range tv > > -color_primaries bt709 -color_trc bt709 -colorspace bt709 -c:a s24le > > -vf setdar=4/3,setfield=tff "$1_ProResHQ.mov" > > > > For basic online sharing you can use this command to convert the FFV1 > > output to a de-interlaced lossy upscaled MP4: > > > > ffmpeg -hide_banner -i "$1.mkv" -vf > > scale=in_color_matrix=bt601:out_color_matrix=bt709:1440x1080,bwdif=1:0:0 > > -c:v libx264 -preset veryslow -b:v 15M -maxrate 15M -bufsize 8M > > -pixel_format yuv420p -color_primaries bt709 -color_trc bt709 > > -colorspace bt709 -aspect 4:3 -c:a libopus -b:a 192k -strict -2 > > -movflags +faststart -y "$1_1440x1080_lossy.mp4" > > > > ==== > > > > Maaay be we still can use pci-e capture card with normal inputs, just > > process raw captures to see if there any difference between 8 and 10 bit? > > -- > Regards, > > Laurent Pinchart >

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Fwd: [oyvindln/vhs-decode] Readme.md need more editing? (Issue #73)
by Andrew Randrianasulu 10 Feb '23

10 Feb '23

---------- Forwarded message --------- От: Harry Munday <notifications(a)github.com> Date: пт, 10 февр. 2023 г., 06:58 Subject: Re: [oyvindln/vhs-decode] Readme.md need more editing? (Issue #73) To: oyvindln/vhs-decode <vhs-decode(a)noreply.github.com> Cc: Andrew Randrianasulu <randrianasulu(a)gmail.com>, Mention < mention(a)noreply.github.com> @Randrianasulu <https://github.com/Randrianasulu> For analogue tapes, FM RF capture and software decoding is the best way to go for correction and preservation. For CVBS sources you can use CVBS-Decode <https://github.com/oyvindln/vhs-decode/wiki/CVBS-Composite-Decode> but it's not going to give anywhere near the results of VHS-Decode this is only ideal for live sources like cameras or digital formats, or analogue ones that have already been through a hardware TBC of some forum (so the whole point of the powerful software TBC in vhs-decode is lost) FFV1 is *not supported by Avid Pro Tools/DaVinchi Resolve/Adobe Suite/Final Cut* hence why it's pretty much disregarded for editing and re-muxing to V210/ProRes HQ (and setting the CLAP/Colr Atom data in amcdx-video-patcher properly after the fact) it meant more so for tossing into StaxRip etc and using a deinterlacer like QTGMC on then tossing into an NLE directly. The issue is also the output from the gen_chroma_vid.sh script is not flagged for interlacing properly this is a limit of FFmpeg but re-muxing fixes this issue. (It is supported in Lossless Cut but at potato render quality.) The wiki is pretty extensive but post-processing docs are being worked on. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/oyvindln/vhs-decode/issues/73#issuecomment-1425140053>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AJSS7TIUWNUQMTH7MABF5D3WW…> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: <oyvindln/vhs-decode/issues/73/1425140053(a)github.com>

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p010 vs all
by Andrew Randrianasulu 10 Feb '23

10 Feb '23

So I found another email thread - sadly it seems patch for even just 10 bit 4:2:0 subsampled signal was not merged yet? but at least we know capture device name .... https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-media@vger.kernel.org/msg142506.html Avermedia Live Gamer ULTRA GC553 Someone also apparently was able to send 10bit data as as greyscale planes, just assembling them back was not easy! https://stackoverflow.com/questions/71500311/how-to-process-a-raw-10-bit-vi… usb videoclass stuff https://www.usb.org/document-library/video-class-v15-document-set I looked at uncompressed ... it confusing a bit, apparently vendors can augment it?

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